Being a Doula Is Like Being a Friend with Ruth Kraft

In your doula business it’s vital to take a step back and reflect on the year—what went well, what didn’t, and where there’s room to grow in your doula business. If you’re ready to get focused, intentional, and strategic for the new year, I’ve got just the thing for you: a two-hour, interactive workshop where we’ll do this exact process together. Let’s set the stage for your strongest year yet! 

https://harroddoulaservices.thrivecart.com/level-up-your-doula-biz-2024-pod/

The details of a Doula certification matter a lot, today we talk to Ruth Kraft who has been a doula for 23 years and trains doulas. She has built so much intentionality into her doula training to help break down some barriers are that otherwise there. Tune in to learn more about who she is and how she trains the next generation of doulas!

Meet Ruth Kraft:

Ruth has been a birth worker for more than 23 years. She has been training and mentoring birth workers for more than 15. She has created her own certification process and trains other birth professionals to pass on her wisdom. She travels all over the country to train and mentor other birth workers in Labor doula, Postpartum doula, Lactation counselors , childbirth educators and advanced classes. SHe has taught for Healthy mothers healthy babies, health start, The doula network, and the state of Hawaii department of health. She also has started a non profit called Community Calling inc to fund training for professionals and pay those students to do the work in their community to help serve the population who needs the help but cannot afford the services on their own. It has a focus on BIPOC community members to help reduce postpartum depression and  the maternal and fetal mortality rate.

CONNECT with Ruth:

www.communitycallinginc.org

birthprofessionalinternational.com

Honoringwomen.com 

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Doula Tips and Tits is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services

It is sponsored by The Doula Biz Blueprint Self-Paced Class for Doulas Launching Successful and Sustainable Businesses! 

Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay

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Transcript

0:34

Welcome to Dula Tips and Tits, the podcast where we cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable doula business. I'm Kaylee Harrod. I've been a doula informally for 14 years and full time for seven. Around here, we don't sugarcoat stuff. We talk autonomy, owning your worth, creating a business that works for you. No fluff, no burnout, just the honest truth on how to be your own best boss. Let's get into today's episode. Hello and welcome back to Dula Tips and Tits. Today, we have another guest. Ruth Kraft is here with us from Florida. She is a doula, a doula trainer, and also has a nonprofit. She's been doing this work for 23 years. She is a seasoned doula in this field. Ruth, I am so happy to have you here. I would love for you to share how you became a doula. I started out on this journey. Thanks for having me. I love doing these. They're exciting. I started actually doing doula work as a teenager without having any idea what it was that I was actually doing. I knew from a very young age, I was very drawn to mothers and babies and birth and had no real understanding of why because I didn't have someone in my life that was a midwife or anything like that. I always say that this is very much a calling. I knew I didn't want to be an OB. I knew I didn't want to be a nurse. I tried nannying for a while. That didn't really work. But anyone, when I was in middle school, 13, 14, 15, and someone would get pregnant in school, I would be like, we should be friends. And then I would be their friend. And back in the 80s, it was a very negative thing. You were shunned pretty hard when you... found out you were pregnant as a teenager. It was not accepted nearly as well as it is now. And so those people really needed support and I was there to give it to them when nobody else would. Although it was a very selfish perspective for myself because I just needed and wanted to know everything. I just was like, tell me everything, you know. And they needed someone to be able to share with. So it worked out well. So it wasn't until quite a few years later in my early twenties when I had my children, I have two and after I had my second, then a friend of mine who also was giving birth around the same time said, oh, you should have hired a doula because a doula could have helped you with all of the issues that you had in your birth experience. And I was like, what even is that? I don't have any idea. And I mean, back in again, the early 2000s. doulas were still a very new concept even though they'd been around for a little bit it was still very very new and very few people knew what they were so I looked into it and thought this this is literally what I have been called to do my entire life um and then when my son was three months old I took my first training um and hit the ground running I did that and then I cross trained with another organization and started doing other trainings became a childbirth educator then did um lactation counseling uh through all the issues that I had with my with nursing my own children I was like I need to help other people know how to do this and um and did postpartum work and and everything and then about eight years after that I had all the new people because I again now have have been in the area for so long people knew who I was and so all these newer doulas were being trained and coming through and everyone would say oh you have to ask Ruth that question oh ask Ruth that so then I started mentoring doulas and then after a while I realized how crappy so much of the training really was even looking back on my first trainings I'm like holy mackerel I'm surprised I know how to do this work at all with how bad some of the trainings were and so at that point I'm training and mentoring people so I thought well I'm going to start training people now too and so then that's how I got into training uh and so and so now I train everybody to do whatever it is that I do um I did teach for a large organization for a while and then needed to get out of that for some ethical reasons so um I now have my own curriculum that I've created labor doula postpartum doula lactation counselor and childbirth educator and then I have other mentoring options and advanced comfort measures and that kind of stuff. I love that um I and part of what I loved as I looked through your your information online is also that like you can see that journey and I have a similar journey of like who I trained with I don't recommend and I don't love there's like ethical reasons for that and also like the actual journey of doing doula work is how you learn the things right and I think it's unique in that way but there are some growing pains that could be avoided if you start out with good information and coaching and guidance and you know our burnout rate is crazy high and I have to blame part of that on the crappy training I agree I agree and it's a hundred percent I agree and so I realized when I was creating my own training and even you know having trained for a larger organization I just was like look if I'm going to have new people come into this then I need them to have all the things I didn't have going through to make their journey easier so that they don't burn out and that they stay in this work. And it's part of how, so with my certification process, I require that people, they have to do the training, of course, right? So now you get all of the basics of what you need to know. And then I encourage them like, as soon as training's over, go out and jump right in. So all of my students get direct mentoring through me if they want it, just like as a general kind of concept, they're going to a birth, they can send me a message and say, hey, I getting ready to go to a birth, can you keep your phone on in case I have any questions? Or they can process births with me afterwards or whatever. But the test itself, all I do is require a test. I don't require certification births because doctors have no idea still, after all this time, they have no idea what dual is due. So you're asking them to give, and they're only there for 20 freaking minutes, so. Yeah, like even being able to follow up with them and get a signature of some kind, yeah. You're going to ask them to give their opinion on how good you did. What if they just don't like doulas in general, so they give you a crappy opinion when in fact you were fantastic, right? Yeah. With nurses and there's the way that so many places do certifications is so problematic that I'm like, we're going to take out all the hoops that people have to jump through. I don't charge like a yearly fee, you know, for them to re-certify and I don't do any of that. Hey, I don't want to do paperwork. I got better things to do with math. Yes, I don't want to keep up with that. Right, and so I tell people all the time, like you're responsible for this work. And if you have a passion to do this, then go out and do it and ask the questions and create the support that you need. You have it available to you, network with other people and do the continuing education. You don't have to write a, you know, two paragraph essay. the middle of the book that you read, pretending that you read a book that I told you you had to read, and you don't wanna read it because you're dyslexic and it's freaking misery for you to read. So much of that prevents people from being amazing at what they're doing. But go out and do it for your education. If you don't wanna do breast cancer, then don't. Then don't, you don't have to. But you better know who in your area is good at it so that you can refer your clients to someone instead of getting crappy information for people. Know who the good people are in your area who give good information. I mean, that's how I teach it. And so the girls who do go through my training know that they have that support and they're much more likely to follow through not only with their certification, but to get out there and actually do the work. And with my non-profit, when I have funding, then I... then I give those girls the work to go. So not only do they get training, a lot of times by a scholarship, also to the non-profit, they also then get the mentoring from me and then I can give them some of those first clients and help them work through it all and pay them to do it as well while helping the community. When you support, we are, we're teaching people how to support new moms. Yeah. Why do we not support our new doulas in the same way? Yeah. Well, and the number of people who get trained as a doula and don't ever actually do the work is so high. Yes. And I think a big part of that is that there are so many missing pieces. Like I remember, I remember being in training at the end of, and it was the two-day training, you know, so it was, it was not super thorough. I mean, it was not, it was not all bad, but it was not thorough. And at the end being like, oh, now I have to like know how to market myself. Like I was just like, do I have to start a legal business today? Like what, you know, and I was so overwhelmed and there were three of us in that training and the other two never did do the work. Like never officially did it. And I, and one was already kind of like supporting friends here and there, similar to how I was, but the other was like, I don't think I can do this. This is overwhelming for me already. And I, I like don't have the skills from this training to do all of those pieces, you know? And so I just spent, you know, $1,200 or whatever it was to do this part. And then I'm literally never going to use it, you know, which is just wild. And it wasn't because I mean, she, her desire, her passion was there. It was the lack of like all the missing pieces that she then was going to have to collect for herself. That is just too much. You know, it's too much work on the doula. Yeah. On top of that being like, okay, don't feel like an imposter going to a birth for the first time by yourself because you know, you should, you should feel good about that. No, you should feel like an impostor the first time you're going to feel a little like I don't know what I'm doing and that's okay, but you do know what you're doing. That's right. That's right. So I always say being a doula is very much like being a friend because so much of what it is that we do as doulas is emotional, so much more than physical, right? So I always say 10% of what we do is give information, right? Here's the information. Yeah, this is a good time to do an epidural, this is the better time, right? Here's the pros and cons of Pitocin at 2 centimeters, it's going to be different at 2 centimeters than it is at 6, right? So you have, you know, here, that's the information part, then you also have the physical part, you know, let's get in the shower, let's do some squats, let's do a double hip squeeze, let's do a peanut ball, let's blah blah blah, whatever, right? You're either physically doing a comfort measure or you're suggesting different. comfort measures for them in a physical way, different positions, etc. That's another 10% of what we do. The other 80% is all emotional. You've got this. You are doing this. Your body was made for this. And you might not remember that. But I remember that. And I see you as strong. And you're going to be able to work through this in the best way that you can. And it's okay to cry. It's okay to cry and get frustrated and angry and concerned. And if you didn't, I would wonder why you aren't, right? Like how disconnected do you have to be to not have any emotions through birth, right? So there's all those, you know, that mental emotion, knowing that, you know, someone a doctor comes in and says, let's, you know, break your water. Well, you don't even have to worry about that because your doula is going to be able to help you understand. So whether or not those questions ever even come up, that peace of mind of knowing that you have somebody who is on your side is so helpful. And literally, it's just like being a friend because the rest of the stuff, right? And even when you're through the like empathy and stuff is really hard to learn. Like you have to have a lot of self awareness, you have to understand the difference between sympathy and empathy, you have to have you have to be the kind of person that that person needs in this in supporting in the way that they need that support. And that's why doulas are so special and what it is that we do and how we offer that emotional connection that's so different than everybody else. Because we care, but we don't have the same background as like family and friends. We don't have that action that kind of do whether or not someone's going to hear what we're saying. And yeah, there's there's a lot of parts and pieces to it. And I tell my new doulas all the time, like, look, you've taken the training, you're already do this. You also already know more than they do because you've sat in on this hundred percent, right? You know more than they do and when you get stuck and you're like, hey We've already tried all of these different things Then that's when you can text me and say text whoever it is that you you know Are also working with and say let's brainstorm some things like yeah for 23 years And I still will send people messages and be like I've been away. Yeah 48 hours. Help me walk through this Like maybe I'm missing something. Oh, yeah, I try let's you know and understanding you're never gonna know it all No, I didn't get to this knowledge and the place that I am after 20 years of doing this By doing a two-day class, but you have Yeah, just in and you have to trust that you're there to help them and if you yeah intention then yeah You can't fail you can't yeah Yeah. Well, and I love that you, that you said, you know, you still text people because that's immediately what I thought when you said that. So I was like, Oh, we all do that. Like we literally all do that when we're like, what am I missing? Like these things that I normally do, like, aren't, you know, the baby's just taking so freaking long or whatever, you know? Sometimes it's because we don't want to, we just don't want to accept that that baby doesn't want to come down for one reason, right? And it's hard because we know what kind of birth she wanted to have. And yeah, into the place of realizing like this may not work, how we want it to as doulas, we don't want to just go. I mean, sometimes I tell people all the time, sometimes we have to trust that babies know what they're doing and they can't or don't want to come down for a reason. Yeah. And we have to trust that that's. Yeah. Because they're communicating with us. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You've tried everything else and exhausted all your options, you know, and you're at that line of, you know, I mean, at what point does a tough birth or a long birth turned into trauma and being very aware of your client and their needs as a family and whatever it is that they have going on. Yeah. And what's going to create trauma versus what's not. Like, yeah, sometimes the risk, even if it's an emotional one alone, it's not anything physical. The risk of the emotional trauma is worth it to call a C-section if needed. And yeah. Yeah. 100 percent. And all of that is emotional. Helping people through stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as doulas, we don't want to get to that point. So yeah. Yeah. We want to try to avoid it as much as possible. Well, I think a big piece, too, is that the like the novelty that is birth. Right. Like you and I can go to a birth. at this point and be like, oh, I've never seen this happen this way. I mean, I, I had so many births last year that I was like, what is going on? Like, what is Tripathi doing? And they were just like the most bizarre timelines, you know, like the, just like wild scenarios that the whole team was like, none of us have ever seen anything like this, right? Like that's, that is going to happen for the rest of your work. You know, when you're new, every birth is that. And so it feels like you know nothing, but that's not true. You know? So like you and I probably have a different perspective of like a C-section, right? I had a client recently have a C-section just because baby was super, super high and all the other things were happening. And she had an amazing OB who eventually was like, listen, I think maybe she's high for a reason. Like maybe we stopped throwing stuff at her and like. just let her come out. And it turned out she was like super tangled up in her cord to the point that she was not going to navigate through the pelvis ever, you know. And, and my client, trying to push her. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it was an induction, especially. So it wasn't spontaneous labor, which is a whole, we could go down that hole. We're not going to pass out inductions, but, but my client felt really good about it, thankfully, because in part, because she had that, that reassurance of like, Oh, the baby did show us this thing. And then she was tangled up in her cord. And so you made a good decision here, you know, like that kind of thought process. But as a doula, even prior to that decision, I knew we were likely heading down that road and didn't feel at fault at all, you know, whereas a newer doula had a very similar birth experience and very much felt like if I had more experience, I would have kept it from happening. That is not the case, you know. So there's a difference in comfort there for yourself, but it doesn't change the fact that you are supporting through that emotional decision making process. You have all the skills to support that, even if it's your very first time doing that, that skill set is just needing to be built up and that muscle is going to get flexed, you know. Absolutely. And I think we have to realize too, especially as newer doulas, although even, you know, as someone who grew up very codependent and had many, many years of therapy to work through that, to be able to have better boundaries with myself and my understanding of where I fit in this work and in my life in general, we have to remember that we are not responsible for our clients, not for their choices, not for their outcomes, not for how their birth experience goes. We are responsible to them to do the best that we can and help them get the information, but if you've done everything that you can to be able to do that, then that's all you can do. I mean, it's... I had a client one time who was one of my most favorite clients. And we were very close. We, it was, she was one of those clients that you just, we just clicked. And, you know, you have some of those that you're just like, we're going to be friends for the rest of our lives. Some where you're just like, I'm, I'd be fine if I never saw you again. You know, I only, I have less than in all the bursts that I've done, I can count on one hand, less than one hand, how many people, like, if they ever called me again and were like, Oh, I'm pregnant. I'd be like, I'm busy. I'd like, like, like, Oh, can you refer me to someone? For the rest of my life. Nope. I can't refer you to anybody. I no longer know any doulas. Nope. I don't, but someone just called you last week. Nah, nope. I don't know. I like, luckily because none of them have more children, but. Yeah, I know that that sounds really judgmental. But oh, no, I have a I have that list too. It's a short list. But if they I mean, I feel that way about myself to like, oh, you don't need to have kids like it's not. I know it sounds really horrible. But there when you're in a place in your life that you just you struggle in every single moment. Bringing more children into that mix is not usually helpful for you or for the children. But anyway, that's, that's a whole other episode. So, right. This one client was she was just, she was just amazing. And and so she was having a V back and ultimately through lots of stuff. Right in the last hour, she ended up having a catastrophic rupture. And the baby ultimately did not make it after that. And I would take an episode to go through the story of all of that. Yeah, yeah, processed it and how I went through it and, and how I continued on with my work afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. doesn't change. And, you know, yeah, those things. But I spent a ridiculous amount of time going through what could I have done differently? Oh, yeah. What if I had like, yes, the nurse wasn't letting me back, my intuition was telling me that there was something going on that I probably could address. But I wasn't getting any information because the nurse wasn't allowing me into triage, which is not a normal thing. And why isn't that happening? And yeah, though I went through all of these things. And, you know, had I been there with her in triage, I think I could have said something to the nurse like, no, this is not normal. This is not how she's been laboring. Nope, this is not. This is not okay. Something is going on. And so we can pay attention to it. Do I think I could, would I have done it in a hot second because that's my personality, but yeah, but the reality is is that I couldn't force them to change their new hospital rules in any way, none of that actually falls on me, even though I went through it over in my head, you know, a million times I got therapy over that too, because I needed to get through it and work through all of that. And we are not responsible for our clients or their outcomes. And it is extremely important to remember that when you do the best that you can do, that is literally all you can do. Yeah, yeah. I have a nurse friend that talks about she's a labor and delivery nurse and she says, you know, the highs are so high here but the lows are thankfully less frequent but so low, like really, really low and you have to have your good, your actual support system around you. to be able to process that in part because you're a part of their support system processing that, right? Yeah, I mean, when you've been doing this for a while, part of what you also get is some trauma, some secondary trauma from things you've witnessed and working through that is how you do this work well, you continue to do this work well. And some people experienced that and would have said, I think I'm done with this now and that's also fine. Like that's, you have all the space to be like, I can't actually do that trauma again, and that's okay. But also like, I think a big piece of it is also recognizing like, if I don't think that this trauma has anything to do with me and my ability in this work, I can stand alongside it and have my own support systems and go to therapy on my own, you know, all of that without feeling like I contributed to that trauma or it's my fault in some way, you know, that helps me work through it as well, yeah. I agree, it takes a lot of personal growth work to get to that place, to be able to be in those hard places. I think it's super important. I tell people all the time in my trainings, look, if you don't realize how much you've grown after doing this work for a little while, you probably shouldn't be doing this work if you're not growing and learning right along with your clients. Yeah, really shouldn't. The secondary trauma thing, I mean, it's huge. We talked about that in training. I have a whole, even after my training, I have a whole like mentoring online thing with like 20, 30 minute sessions about all those missing pieces we were talking about before. Like going into more detail about contracts and secondary trauma and systemic racism and what it is that we can do. Because there's only so much that you can cover in an actual training. That's part of why that continuing education is so important. I mean, even 20 years into this, I wouldn't ever sit and think to myself, I just know enough to. never do continuing education. Things are changing all of the time. Yeah. Yeah. You have to get in there and really continuously learn not only about hey this is the newest research but also how do I do self-care? What does self-care look like to me? Yeah. It can look very different for you than it can be to someone else. Yeah. It doesn't have to be going and taking a girls weekend which is freaking fantastic when it does happen but it could just be like sitting in your car for 20 minutes before you come back into the house so that you can have that quiet view time in your own little bubble. Right? Like all of that kind of stuff can be self-care and learning all of that stuff along the way to take care of you. Yeah. Much like we teach our parents if they aren't taking care of themselves they can't take care of their baby. Well if you're not taking care of yourself you're not going to be able to take care of your parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and we're going to ultimately perpetuate some of that trauma. and future births rather than continue to lower it. We have a helicopter going over my house. I don't know if you hear that, but here we are. I know my dog barked a little bit ago, and I was like, wow, whatever, at least it was a little bit. We live by a military base, so we occasionally have some incredibly loud aircraft things. And I'm like, OK, great, that's in the podcast. You guys know I live in DC. So to wrap us up today, I do think we need like five or six follow up episodes. I have so many subjects. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, truly, like I think part of what I love about this work is that there there's kind of endless things, right? Like we could have event session. We could also have like a we really need to know how to handle unexpected loss, at least a little bit, because you're not always going to know. That's what you're walking into. You know, and there's like this work comes with some of that. So that those are two not super fun things to talk about. There are other fun things that we could also do. But they're really important. Like I remember going to my first loss, not not even just a loss, but like the very first like adverse outcome that I have. Yeah, the baby was born with a genetic disorder that we didn't know. Yeah. And it is a very subtle one. But ultimately, all of the muscles in her esophagus didn't work. So she couldn't actually swallow food, even though she looked like she was nursing well, and she was doing. I mean, it was physically swallow and ultimately ended up with a tube in her stomach and like supporting a family through that. It was my third course that. Oh, wow. And it and dealing with all of the postpartum stuff after and all those things. So if you do this for long enough, you're going to come across. Yes. Luckily, I've not experienced a parental loss. But I've definitely experienced early miscarriages, late miscarriages, stillbirths, babies, you know, the catastrophic loss, the catastrophic rupture, like these kinds of things. And I never in a million years thought that that was something I would have to deal with. So it's something we talk about in class and, you know, all of those things, that's how I built my training is all of the things I wish I would have known along the way. It's not always good. It's not always good. The trauma that comes out, your client might not even realize there's trauma, but you know that trauma happened. Or once the client go through something and getting that secondary trauma, that's traumatic for you, even if they don't have a clue. Like all of that stuff is so important. And one of those could be an episode. Dozens of episodes, 23 years worth of episodes. Yeah. Yeah, truly. I've got some good stories. Also some like weird I mean, I feel like I should do an episode at some point of just like, the weirdest birth. Some of my clients tell me I need a coffee table book that's like birth is weird. That's just the whole book. It's just like, nothing was happening. Nothing was happening. The baby came out. And we're like, what the hell? I was doing one of my weird stories as I was doing a birth with a woman who and ultimately her labor went from nothing to everything really fast. And she had the baby in about an hour and a half. And but every time she would moan, that her cat she was doing, she's giving birth in her bathroom. And her cat would run into the bathroom, stand on the side of the tub and smack her in the head. And then turn around and run out. And we were like, what the hell like so after like three or four like continuous smacks, we had to close the door to keep the cat out. It was like the cat was coming in and telling her shut up. Shut your face. When we give birth as cats, we don't have to make this kind of noise. Like, like, what the hell just happened here? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. No, I have I have a few key ones that stick out that I'm like, Oh, yeah, that would go in the book. If I ever actually do that. Maybe just for myself. All right. I know. In all of our spare time. Right. Because I'm not busy at all. Okay, well, I want to wrap this episode up. I am so excited that we got to have this conversation. And I am excited to do future conversations because I think it would be lovely. If there was one thing that you could share with the doulas listening today kind of as a takeaway thing, what would that be? Um, try to interview trainers before you do your training the same way that doulas interview with their clients to find out who's going to work for you have to, you have to have faith in the person who's training you. You have to know what kind of, you know, one of the biggest complaints I have people who take other people's trainings and then they end up coming in taking mine. And they go, Oh my gosh, that was the most powerful training. I can't tell you how much more I learned in your training than I did in the other one. And I don't understand why. And part of it is personality, right? You, you have my personality. I'm like a very direct person. You know, I, I can, you know, make jokes about all kinds of different things. I can be pretty animated throw a fucking there here or there. Oh yeah. I can throw a fucking to all kinds of things in all kinds of situations. Um, Sometimes it's good and sometimes people are like, wow, you said that it came out of your face and I'm like, damn right it did and I will stand behind it on your back. And I'm not taking it back. That's right. And the older I get, the worse it becomes. So there's that too. But you have to like my personality. You like the whole mentoring thing. Like I've looked at Facebook groups about people who are they're like, oh, you know, they're asking questions about things that should have been basic information that they went over training. And I'm thinking and I'm like, you know, oh, you know, can you give me a contract? And I'm like, can anyone send me a contract? And I'm like, how did you not get a contract in your training? Like, that should be something that you should be asking your trainer. Are you like, do they not mentor you through it? You know, oh, no, no, they know they don't really, you know, I mean, I've sent several messages, but they don't respond. Right. Like you want to have it because there are so many do a training organizations now and there are so many that are coming out every day, every month. And just because it's a do a training doesn't mean it's a good one. And if you're serious about doing this work, you need to find someone who is going to be there for you to do you through your experiences. Because otherwise, you're going to be just as lost as a new mom who's having her first baby who has no idea what she's doing. Is she going to get through it? Absolutely. Yeah. And you figure it out on your own. Absolutely. But if you can get a good trainer who does the what who does and responds to you in the way that you need that support, then it might cost more money. I charge more money for my trainings than some do. Some charge a lot of fee and don't give nearly as much as what I give. you know so just and it doesn't have to be a big name either right yeah yeah because they've been around a long time doesn't mean it's a good training no you know make ask those questions first and if you've already taken a training and you kind of think about like you're here and you're like you know then take another one yeah you can you can take whatever trainings you want and take what you learn and leave the rest it's yeah when I when I took took my childbirth educator training to teach childbirth education I will tell you that probably half it was an eight week class and it was one time a week for eight weeks and half of what we learned I have never ever used in an active childbirth class ever and I've been teaching for 20 years now um and for one of the things that we had to do but this is also my personality and who I am one of the things we had to do for certification was to go sit in on someone else's childbirth class. I went and sat in on eight different classes from eight different teachers. All of the ones in the area who would allow me to come and observe their class, because you get ideas, right? You will learn different things. And I encourage my students even to come and retake my trainings if they need to do a touch-up or whatever. And just to, because we'll go over different subjects, right? People will have different questions, we'll talk about different things, you know, whatever. So that's probably the biggest set of advice. When you're very first in it, you need to find a training that's truly going to work for you and give you the kind of support that you're going to need. And if you're the kind of person who isn't a self-starter like I am, who I'm like, what? You only want me to do one? I'm going to do eight. If that's not your personality and you need more hand-holding, you need to find a trainer who's going to help hold your hand so that you can be successful. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I love that you included, like, if you've already done a training and you didn't learn what you need to learn, or you didn't love it, you know, your trainer is not there for you in a way that you thought they should be. I mean, there are people who do just mentoring and coaching and that, you know, like, outside of training. Yeah, I have to take my training again. They can still just, you know, call me and be like, I mean, I charge for it, but, you know, they can certainly, you know, if they're just going to ask one or two questions, that's fine. But if we're going to have, we have concessions, then, then that's a service that I'm going to charge for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to generally pick my brain before they take a class or whatever. I encourage it. Yeah. And people are like, I'm so sorry for all the questions. I'm like, ask every question you have, because the more comfortable you are with taking the training, that means the more comfortable you're going to be to actually be able to learn and retain the information to give to other people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. And I mean, this is not work that we should be doing just by our own imagination, right? Like we're with our clients almost always alone. But we should collectively learn from one another. And that's something that needs to be part of what you're doing in some way, shape or form, whether that's formal mentoring or coaching or something like that. Or informal collectives and that kind of stuff like you just cannot be isolated. I mean, there's great information out there. I'm working on my Instagram. I'm not a social group by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm working on building that up because everyone's like you need to have this. And it is maddening to me how much horrible information is out there. And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. But people believe it. So no, it's just because it's on the internet. Even me, like when people are just like, I'll say, look, just because I put it up there doesn't necessarily mean it's true. But the difference is, is that I can back my step up with oh, yeah, actual research. So if someone, yeah, here's the research, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation today. All of Ruth's information is in the show notes. So if you want to reach out with her and connect with her about her trainings, or just as a doula, feel free to do that. I know that she would love to have the connections of you all lovely listeners. And until the next one, I'll see you in the following episode. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the doula tips and tits podcast. 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